[arm-allstar] simpleusb / channel driver merge status?

Stanley Stanukinos ka5iid at swbell.net
Mon Oct 2 10:30:33 EST 2017 

Richard, a band pass filter (can) is not a second harmonic filter. The second harmonic filter is normally in line right after the isolator. It is a small device. 

The intermod study depending upon the number of frequencies involved simple or complex. There are programs out that will do the task. Some are free some cost money. 

If am am coming off sounding condescending, sorry. I am not intending to. I am just trying to get the point across.  You could also have a TX a couple of miles away get into the mix and cause issues. 

You and your teams head will be hurting for a while as you research this problem

Stan

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 2, 2017, at 10:07 AM, Richard Bateman <richard at batemansr.us> wrote:
> 
> Hi Stanley, Doug,
> 
> I do have an isolator on the transmitter, as well as an extra bandpass
> filter on both the TX and RX. I haven't tried adding a wattmeter
> inline for testing -- that's not a bad idea.
> 
> I don't know how to do a "full intermod study" but have a colleague
> who has been helping as he can who has started doing some of that; we
> have a lot of work to do on the mountain, but just haven't had time to
> do it all.  As I've stated several times, I'm mostly trying to
> eliminate simple things that I can do remotely at the moment since I
> have limited time over the next couple of weeks and I don't know when
> the weather is going to turn.
> 
> Richard
> 
> On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 8:44 AM, "Stanley Stanukinos via arm-allstar"
> <arm-allstar at hamvoip.org> wrote:
>> Richard, you stated you have an isolator on the transmitter. Do you have a second harmonic filter after the isolator? Also have you done a full intermod study on the site including the if frequencies? That may answer some questions.
>> 
>> Stan
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Oct 2, 2017, at 9:38 AM, Doug Crompton via arm-allstar <arm-allstar at hamvoip.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> While they are expensive repeaters in high RF areas should use an isolator
>>> (circulator) on the TX line to the duplexor. This not only reduces external
>>> RF from entering the the transmitter and producing possible intermod
>>> products but also protects the transmitter from a high SWR should something
>>> happen to the antenna. Many commercial towers require their use. Stick a
>>> watt meter on the antenna and you often see watts of out of band power
>>> coming down from the antenna in a high RF area.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> *73 Doug*
>>> 
>>> *WA3DSP*
>>> 
>>> *http://www.crompton.com/hamradio <http://www.crompton.com/hamradio>*
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 10:25 AM, "Richard Bateman via arm-allstar" <
>>> arm-allstar at hamvoip.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Hi David,
>>>> 
>>>> Yeah, I'm actually getting both of those issues =] I don't think the
>>>> echo issue is actually related to desense in this case, though, I
>>>> think we have a mixing product somewhere.  I've got an extra bandpass
>>>> cavities on both sides and I've done some tests and the sensitivity of
>>>> the receiver does not seem to be meaningfully impacted when the
>>>> repeater is transmitting.
>>>> 
>>>> The random keying issue could well be something like you suggest;
>>>> oddly, only that repeater of the 4 on the same tower is affected and
>>>> while I am using some LMR400 on the tower still, it's all very new
>>>> (temporary while we make sure our antenna setup is where it will be)
>>>> and this antenna is actually the one that *is* using heliax.  I've
>>>> also got an isolator on this one, but there isn't on most of the other
>>>> ones. If the issue happened all the time it'd be a lot easier to track
>>>> down, of course =]
>>>> 
>>>> That does remind me, though, that I don't think I've put the antenna
>>>> analyzer on the full antenna system -- I know the antenna itself was
>>>> very very good (something like 1.15:1) when I put it up, but I haven't
>>>> tested it through the feedline or through the duplexer and I should do
>>>> that.
>>>> 
>>>> Lots of things to try, little time to go up on the mountain this week
>>>> =] Gotta get part of the house ready for my sister whose family needs
>>>> a place to stay for a couple of months as they relocate. Life is
>>>> always interfering with my repeater work... *sigh* ;-)
>>>> 
>>>> I appreciate your thoughts and feedback; I'll keep testing and trying
>>>> things.
>>>> 
>>>> Richard
>>>> 
>>>>> On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 5:32 AM, David McGough <kb4fxc at inttek.net> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi Richard,
>>>>> 
>>>>> If your situation is that the repeater is just randomly generating an
>>>>> active COS signal when its transmitter is un-keyed, this is most likely
>>>> an
>>>>> RF intermod or other interference problem. If you're at a site with
>>>>> broadcast transmitters, something intermittently arcing (diode noise) is
>>>> a
>>>>> likely suspect. Look for (and remove/replace!) any loose, rusted/corroded
>>>>> hardware near your RX antenna.
>>>>> 
>>>>> If the repeater is getting back into itself so that you hear an audio
>>>>> echo, this is most likely severe desense from the repeater's own
>>>>> transmitter. Is the problem reduced/eliminated if you turn the
>>>> transmitter
>>>>> power down (temporarily)??
>>>>> 
>>>>> Some antennas and types of feedline are more susceptible to PIM (passive
>>>>> intermod) generation than others. For example, in general, it's best to
>>>>> stay away from LMR style coax---any style that has a tinned braid over
>>>>> aluminum foil (dissimilar metals). While LMR coax may work fine when
>>>>> initially installed, after a few years, once a little corrosion has
>>>>> started between the braid and foil, it starts causing noise problems.
>>>> Some
>>>>> style of heliax is preferred.
>>>>> 
>>>>> ....Your antenna system needs to be virtually "perfect," of course, if
>>>>> you're using a duplexer, or your TX will probably interfere with the RX.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Without knowing more about your RF setup, it's hard to do more in depth
>>>>> diagnostics??
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 73, David KB4FXC
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Sun, 1 Oct 2017, Richard Bateman wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Yeah, I'm using the URIx.  I'm having a couple of issues, but the one
>>>>>> I'm trying to deal with right now is basically that there is some kind
>>>>>> of noise that keeps keying up the repeater and we can't figure out
>>>>>> where it is coming from. It might well just be that it's RF noise and
>>>>>> we need to track it down, since I hear it when the repeater's squelch
>>>>>> opens and there is no signal to listen to, but on the spectrum
>>>>>> analyzer it's not strong enough to come out of the noise.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Sometimes it'll sit there kerchunking over and over again, multiple
>>>>>> times per second, despite the PL tone on the receive, and other times
>>>>>> it's quiet as you could ask for. Putting an extra ground wire as you
>>>>>> suggest sounds like it'd be worth a try to me =]
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> One reason I've been considering trying dsp-based is to find out for
>>>>>> sure if the issue is in the RF signal or if it's in the CTCSS/COR
>>>>>> signalling when they shouldn't (for whatever reason, whether the
>>>>>> radio, which is a TKR-750 version 1, or some electrical issue like a
>>>>>> ground loop).
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Richard
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Sun, Oct 1, 2017 at 7:44 PM, David McGough <kb4fxc at inttek.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Hi Richard,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Are you using a URI or URIx audio adapter?  If so, I've had superior
>>>>>>> results by adding an extra, heavy-gauge ground lead to the URI. Then,
>>>> I
>>>>>>> directly connect this lead to the repeater chassis--a screw on a
>>>> Kenwood
>>>>>>> TKR repeaters...This has been my #1 ground-loop solution.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Here are a few sample photos:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> https://hamvoip.org/kenwood-TKR/P1030817.JPG
>>>>>>> https://hamvoip.org/kenwood-TKR/P1030820.JPG
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Test TKR-750-2 repeater on bench:
>>>>>>> https://hamvoip.org/kenwood-TKR/P1030831.JPG
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> ALSO -- on the TKR750/850 repeaters, make sure to notice that the
>>>> 25-pin
>>>>>>> accessory plug has separate analog and digital grounds!
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> If you've got RF or other noise issues with simpleusb telemetry, I
>>>> doubt
>>>>>>> switching to usbradio DSP-based signaling will fix anything. Try
>>>> running
>>>>>>> the TX into a dummy load and test, if possible.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 73, David KB4FXC
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 1 Oct 2017, "Richard Bateman via arm-allstar" wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I've been having some issues that I'm starting to suspect might be
>>>>>>>> related to RF getting into my interface cables triggering my COR and
>>>>>>>> CTCSS lines (not in any way convinced, but it's on my list of
>>>>>>>> suspects) and have been toying with the idea of using usbradio
>>>> instead
>>>>>>>> of simpleusb for awhile; last time I did that the audio was kinda
>>>>>>>> crappy, so I switched to simpleusb.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> While looking around I noticed that there is a "TODO" on the hamvoip
>>>>>>>> page about merging the channel drivers, which I assume might be
>>>>>>>> something along the lines of using DSP for COR and CTCSS detect but
>>>>>>>> using the other audio for actual TX?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Anyway, I'm just wondering what the status of that is and if there is
>>>>>>>> any way I can help with the efforts; it would help me out a lot on
>>>>>>>> several different projects.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Richard
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> 
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>>>>>>>> arm-allstar at hamvoip.org
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>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Visit the BBB and RPi2/3 web page - http://hamvoip.org
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> 
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>>>> 
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>>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> 
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>>> 
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>> 
>> 
>> .
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